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RobDickson
regular
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 1659
Loc: Slough, UK
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This is something that I've been thinking about for ages, and can't quite get my head around. Maybe users of this forum can put me straight.
I read all the time about people not liking the fact the IE now dominates the browser market, having seriously pushed Netscape out of the way. It's quite easy, if you don't like the browser that Microsoft has kindly included in Windows free of charge, then use other browsers. Yes, it would be nice if IE and OE could be uninstalled, but if you don't like them, don't use them. Yes, it does mean that you need to download extra security updates, but you'll be downloading Windows updates anyway, so why not download IE updates at the same time.
The other bit I don't understand is why Microsoft wants to dominate a market with a product that it doesn't make any money on. Is it purely because when people are surfing, it wants to see Microsoft on the blue bar at the top of the screen?
I'm sure I'm missing something here, and I'm also sure that there are plenty of people out there just waiting to correct me.
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 28258
Loc: belfast
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microsoft released a full package, os,browser,oe etc so that they all work together. imagine if they hadn't, you could have a windows os, someone elses browser, some other mail set up. and when it didn't work, we get the pass the buck syndrome, everyone blaming everyone else. at present microsoft supply support for all their products. so you could have a full working system and only one company to deal with instead of 4 or 5. if you wish to use a different browser or mail client that's fine, but if you have problems with it microsoft quite rightly don't want to know anything about it.
My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. Every now and then she stops to breathe. 
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safeTsurfa
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 693
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Microsoft wants to control the market, not just dominate it. It has a global ambition to be the only supplier, and make the whole industry and every single user dependent on its products. That is why people hate the company so much, because it is trying to take away freedom to choose. Then there's the DRM issue, where again Microsoft wants everyone to dance to its tune (no pun intended), with its hardware DRM chipping and it's proprietory DRM controls set into the RAM modules and peripheral devices.
Don't you know what Gates's personal ambition is? It's for everything with a chip in it to be run by Microsoft. It's wants the ordinary user to have a screen with a mouse and keyboard, but no box. Instead we log in to Microsoft owned servers to run their own applications and store our files on their drives. And the connection will be always on, so they can feed us anything they like and we can't stop it, as there will be no way to install blockers and anti-spam software.
For all this "Brave New World" we will be charged a subscription, every year renewable, and if we don't pay we lose the ability to use the personal unit, plus access to our data. All this was revealed some time ago in an interview with him, where he discussed his vision of the future and the Microsoft role in it.
Now lets take a look at these updates you find so wonderful. Let's ask why they are there? Is it becuase of ongoing technological advancements, or is it mainly down to sloppy work on a sub-standard product? Sure, Microsoft may be the market leader by volume, but that doesn't make their products the best. I don't applaud Microsoft for fixing its problems, I condemn it for having them in the first place, as most of them relate to bad coding which more time and thorough checking would have uncovered pre-release.
Less concern about profit, and more care about Quality Control would go a long way to improving customer relations. This is why Windows Millennium failed so completely, and why Microsoft admits openly they launched it before it was ready, and should not have done.
The bottom line is simple, given the problems we continually have with its products, Microsoft is the world's biggest scam company. In my book, that is nothing to brag about, and gives every reason not to trust them. The problem is, now they are the dominant corporation in IT, they think they don;t have to care any more, as people will still use their products becuase they feel they have no choice. Again, such an atittude towards the customer is nothing to be proud of, and shows how shameless and unethical the company and its owner really are.
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 28258
Loc: belfast
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what a load of twaddle, if it wasn't for microsoft you would still be using DOS. and there would be no such thing as a home computer. if you don't like microsoft don't use any of their products.
My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. Every now and then she stops to breathe.
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BurrWalnut
Chippendaler
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 3421
Loc: London, England
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safeTsurfa
Don't be so ridiculous!
The objective of every commercial company is to make money. Yes, make money - this may be abhorrent to you but it's true.
Reading between the lines I feel you have some congenital hatred of Microsoft in general and Bill Gates in particular. This man and his company have done more than any other to promote personal computing throughout the civilised world and he has been, quite rightly, recognised for his contribution to knowledge advancement, and for his philanthropic work.
I like Microsoft and I like their products and, unless proven otherwise, will continue to use them and recommend them to others.
Fine English furniture is the new rock 'n' roll
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safeTsurfa
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 693
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Bulldust Bricat - who do you think made DOS??? And yes, I did do everything in DOS and various products from a host of companies, and in BASIC and dBase and Supercalc - it was the only way to get things done when I first started out in computing.
I gave my opinion as is my right, you disagree as is yours. But you ever provoke me that way again, and I will retaliate.
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putasolutions
regular
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 12156
Loc: Infinity and beyond
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There was nothing provoking in bricat's response to you, safetsurfa. He was expressing his opinion just as you were, as is his right!
I would hesitate to guess what operating system you are using, but I have heard your arguments before on many a forum, and the arguments that you put forward, in your own words, are bulldust.
As BurrWalnut points out, all businesses are there to make a profit, and if you look at the mission statements of virtually every company, if they have one, is to be the best at what they do. They do not start out as a philanthropic venture. The difference between Micro$oft and other O/S is simply is that they are simply the easiest to use of all those available, they are very good at marketing and they try to provide what the user wants.
You say that the product is flawed, of course it is, it is written by human beings. When human beings are perfect, present company excepted, then we might get the perfect product.
Are you saying that Chubb Safes are a rubbish product? No, but thousands get broken into every year. Do I hear you expressing anger at Symantec in their quest for global domination of the security market, No
Of course, people are going to try and break Micro$oft code, there's no point in attacking Linux users, crackers and virus writers aren't going to get the attention that they so desparately crave, by attacking 5% of the worlds' computers users.
Bill Gates himself said that he could have Windows 100% secure but nobody other than someone with an IQ in excess of Einsteins would be able to use it. I don't know about yours but mine doesn't come anywhere near close to that, which would then exclude me from this incredible world of computers. I would be prepared to assassinate the person who did that!
Please post your query to the boards as many hands make light work, and I'm not talking electricians! If your problem is solved, let us know so that others can learn.
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hippoface
regular
Reg'd: Sun
Posts: 2608
Loc: Shropshire
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Well said Iain
Jeff
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been?
It's alright we know where you've been.
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 28258
Loc: belfast
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if i wanted to provoke you i would certainly have used different words,  if you are so against microsoft why do you use their products. of course they are out to make money, even charities have to make money. the fact is, they came out with a package that made the computer more attractive to the ordinary bloke,which meant he could get into computing. when ford produce upgrades for their car models how many do they give away free.................... none.
i think microsoft are doing an excellent job combating the morons out there who want to wreck the net.
My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. Every now and then she stops to breathe.
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thebiggfella
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 1325
Loc: Scotland, UK
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Spot on (again).
Success is getting what you want. Happiness is liking what you get.
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owen
regular
Reg'd: Thu
Posts: 3236
Loc: Lancashire, United Kingdom
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It may be too late to express my opinion, but I am going to do so anyway.
Microsoft is a company like any other company in this world. They are not perfect. I admit that I have criticised Microsoft a few times and a few other companies (Symantec for example) but wherever you go you'll find criticisms. It is true that Microsoft do make quite a few mistakes but they do fix them and notify you in a convienient way.
I don't use Internet Explorer, because I used to use alternative browsers such as Netscape and Mozilla on my old Windows 95 and I got used to them and found them a lot faster than Internet Explorer. Vulnerabilities don't affect the browsers capabilities.
I wouldn't dream of switching to an Apple Mac or a Linux, I'll stay with Windows as long as Microsoft admit their mistakes and fix them.
Safetsurfa, you make it sound like you have created an Operating System yourself and Microsoft is competition. If everyone shared your views, I'd expect to see much more viruses. Thats exactly the kind of thing that will go through the heads of virus writers, trying to get revenge on a huge company that makes money.
Owen,
http://www.isecurity.org.uk
"Don't be content with things as they are. The earth is yours and the fullness therof"- Winston Churchill
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Jaynee
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 3256
Loc: Rhyl
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With regards to this owen : Safetsurfa, you make it sound like you have created an Operating System yourself and Microsoft is competition. If everyone shared your views, I'd expect to see much more viruses. Thats exactly the kind of thing that will go through the heads of virus writers, trying to get revenge on a huge company that makes money.
ROFLMAO
SafeTsurfa get a grip!!!
I love puta as much as I love this forum
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Madeline
regular
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 14625
Loc: Wales
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I get really fed up with people slagging of Microsoft. If it wasn't for Bill Gates and M/soft, most of us wouldn't be on-line now. I have had this PC for nearly a year and I have found Windows easy to use and M/soft's website is very user-friendly. I haven't had any problems with IE and will continue to use it unless/until I do. I download their security patches as soon as they are available and keep all my other security up to date. The only reason M/soft are a target for hackers etc. is that they have about 94% of computer users using a Windows OS. If Mac or Linux had this many people using their systems instead, they would be the target for virus writers instead. Anyway, if everyone kept their patches & security up to date, these idiots wouldn't have much success, would they?
Madeline. (now off hobby horse) 
Don't let other people screw things up for you; do it yourself!
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RobDickson
regular
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 1659
Loc: Slough, UK
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Ooops, I appear to have opened a can of worms here. I actually expected to be in the minority with my views, but it seems that, for once, I'm in the majority. I doubt it'll happen again.
One point about the security updates, is that hackers don't actually spend ages trying to find flaws in Windows or IE. What they do, is wait for a security update to be released, find what the loophole the patch has fixed, and then work out how to exploit the loophole. If everybody installed the security patches straight away, then the hackers would have a much harder job.
If you believe what Microsoft said a couple of weeks ago, there has been no recorded case of hackers exploiting a loophole before the security patch has been released.
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rorythedog
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 134
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
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I've got to say how amazed I am at the willingness of all you people to toe the party line. For what it's worth, I'm with SafeT on this one.
I've had my computer for nearly a year now and for the first six months, every problem I had originated from Microsoft products (except for a couple of problems with Symantec, but that's another story).
Six months in, I changed to Firebird(...fox) and Thunderbird. In the subsequent six months I've had no problems. Maybe it's coincidence. I honestly can't see why, after having tried either of the above, someone would go back to IE or OE.
It's also galling that, even though I don't use IE I still have to download security updates for it just because I have it on my system. Why can't I uninstall it?
Before anyone asks, I have XP on my system because that's what it came with. I was a complete novice when I bought this system. Rest assured, when it comes time to update to Longhorn, it'll be Linux for me.
I am greatful to Bill Gates. I acknowledge that nobody else has done more to promote personal computing. However, I also respect Renault for inventing the car, but I wouldn't have one. They've all got fat arses.:o)
It wisnae' me
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 28258
Loc: belfast
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In reply to:
Before anyone asks, I have XP on my system because that's what it came with. I was a complete novice when I bought this system. Rest assured, when it comes time to update to Longhorn, it'll be Linux for me.
is it not possible that in the first 6 months (as a novice) that mistakes you made may have contributed to the problems you had. i was a complete novice when i got my first computer and believe me in the first 6 months i made mistakes, mainly by trying to run before i had learned to walk. and i congratulate you on learning so much about computers in less than a year. I don't toe any party line if i don't like something i'll get rid of it. but i haven't had that many problems with microsoft and most problems i have had have been my own doing. i use slimbrowser simply because it has more functions than IE not because IE is a problem. I've also noticed that there is a tendency these day's to attack anything that is successful. so as far as toeing the party line goes you are as guilty as anyone, but the line you are toeing relates to the tall poppy syndrome, as soon as something or someone becomes successful, chop it down.
My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. Every now and then she stops to breathe.
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rorythedog
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 134
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
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You're right about my initial inexperience causing some of my problems. I hold my hands up to that. However recently, due to a brief change of abode, I was forced to use IE and OE for a time. Slow, unwieldy and insecure.
What's wrong with supporting the little guy (Mozilla)?
Finally, as you yourself use an alternative browser, pots and kettles spring to mind.
It wisnae' me
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gollum
regular
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 278
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"It's for everything with a chip in it to be run by Microsoft." does that include your shoulder sTs ;-)
There are alternative os's out there for free which are more secure ie Linux, freebsd. But are people willing to take the time to learn more complex operating systems to gain better security? My only gripe with IE is the dreaded activeX; or more correctly, the initial settings of security on IE when its run. In my own experience, I have had problems with spyware (granted, not all spyware comes this route, but alot does!) and had to evaluate my security settings (which I thoight were high enough anyway!)
Personally, I use WIN98; why? cos it was on my PC when I had it built.
I figure owning a PC is like owning a car. You dont have to be a mechanic to own a car, but it helps if you know a little about how it works (eg changing oil tyres etc) to make it work better for you. And the same is true about PC's. As has already been said, if it wasnt for Mr Gates, most homes wouldnt have acces to pc's or even the net. What I feel Microsoft could have done is given away a brief guide to windows and how to tweak security settings on IE, outlook etc. Common things that could be the difference between getting a virus/trojan/spyware, and not getting one, in laymans terms IMHO.
and BTW DOS was written by Microsoft ;-) (anybody remember windows 3.1 - I'm showing my age here lol)
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 28258
Loc: belfast
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you talk about not wanting to own a renault, that's fair enough, but take the mini for instance, there are not many people still driving the old mini's, but you can't take away the impact they had on the car market and car buyers,it's the same with windows, anything that is invented and released to the public is going to be modified and altered by other people trying to make it better,cheaper,easier to use etc. but no-one has brought out a better easier to use os than windows. and if they have they haven't marketed it properly. everything we use today has been improved upon over the years, televisions were black and white when they first came out and eventually they changed to colour. does that mean that the first black and white televisions were rubbish.? every time something new is released it is a challenge to other developers to improve on it. because no one has produced and marketed a better os than windows, don't blame microsoft. windows is attacked by virus writers because it is the most popular, it is the virus writers at fault not microsoft. when some little toe rag steals my car I'm hardly going to blame ford, because they didn't make it thief proof. it wouldn't matter how secure ford made the car, someone would come up with a way of getting in to it. it's not ford's fault that the world is full of morons.so when you buy a car you take responsibility for it's security, you fit an alarm system, or you fit an immobiliser,or a steering lock.the same goes with a computer, you have to take steps to ensure it's security, because there are morons out there intent on wrecking it for everyone. microsoft released a product that appealed to the public and brought them into the world of computing. and it works. how many security holes are there in linux or any of the other systems, they haven't been tested yet. because the whizz kids aren't interested in them. so don't mind me sticking with windows and bill gates, and i don't give a monkeys how rich he get's, good luck to him. it is morons writing viruses that get microsoft a bad name not microsoft. ( now where's that bottle of cabernet sauvignon i was drinking)
My wife has a slight impediment in her speech. Every now and then she stops to breathe.
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rorythedog
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 134
Loc: Dundee, Scotland
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I don't think the Mini is the best analogy you could have used. The original Mini, designed by Alex Issigonis, was intended to fulfill four criteria.
1. It should be small
2. It should be cheap to buy and run
3. It should be spacious
4. It should be low maintenance
The original Mini achieved all of these objectives. Can the same be said for BMW's interpretation?
It's bigger than many cars on the market today
It's now relatively expensive compared to other cars in it's market sector
It has proportionally less interior space than the original
It can't be serviced at home without access to incredibly expensive diagnostic equipment
IMHO I think this is where Bill Gates is trying to take the PC. In ten years time when things start to go wrong you can forget about fixing it yourself. It'll be off to the service centre for the men in white coats to drool over, at great cost to you.
No, give me open source any day. At least when something goes wrong I can go to their, usually incredibly helpful, forums, and talk to people who have a genuine love and respect for their respective programs.
These things matter to me. I'll take the 1275GT with a skimmed head, Janspeed manifold and twin 40's thank you very much.
It wisnae' me
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