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predator
regular
Reg'd: Sun
Posts: 530
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Apologies if this has been mentioned before or its in the wrong forum.
What do people think about BT, Virgin and Talk Talk (so far) signing up Phorm ( a company who's boss was responsible for some of the spyware we all hate).
Phorm will monitor your web access - not just what sites you visit - they monitor the page content and everything you type in on forms etc. The aim is to send you targeted adverts (lie we really want more adverts). They claim that they wont store numbers over 3 digits to avoid credit card numbers being recorded. Unless a page is secure then they will see everything you do.
How do people feel about having their web usage monitored like this ? Do you see it as something ISP's should be doing or not ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?2
http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/index.html
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 27426
Loc: belfast
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I for one will be "opting out" 
they are all at it, DELL installs "myway" on all their computers, not so long ago they were producing spyware. once a rogue always a rogue.
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MY HELP IS FREE,BUT PLEASE CONSIDER GIVING A DONATION TO HELP IN MY FIGHT AGAINST SPYWARE.
 
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing. 
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Madeline
regular
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 14604
Loc: Wales
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Quote:
Do you see it as something ISP's should be doing or not ?
No. I'm perfectly capable of taking care of my own on-line security and I don't need any nannying from my ISP.
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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton, 1887.
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Doublell
regular
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 461
Loc: Essex
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On principle I object to anything that requires me to opt out rather than opt in. Unfortunately, if as many as 10% of computer users opt out the firm will still gather a lot of information and ship out a lot of ads. It's just another form of junk mail.
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'the essential is invisible to the eyes'
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 27426
Loc: belfast
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the more i read about this the angrier i get.
If i want to see advertisements i'll watch television.
I pay virgin to provide me with a broadband connection, end of story, not to bombard me with adverts.
if this is their attitude towards customers then maybe we should vote with our feet.
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MY HELP IS FREE,BUT PLEASE CONSIDER GIVING A DONATION TO HELP IN MY FIGHT AGAINST SPYWARE.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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predator
regular
Reg'd: Sun
Posts: 530
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Looking at the available info a bit more it looks like they are planning to insert adverts into the pages you view rather than emailing you spam.
As someone who runs a website, I am not happy that someone might then put adverts in my page before delivering it to the users. That is unacceptable as users may assume the adverts are part of my site when I have no knowledge of them as the page is on my server ad-free but could be delivered including ads that I have no control over.
Lets hope some techie genius figures out a way to stop this from working.
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predator
regular
Reg'd: Sun
Posts: 530
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Talk talk have decided to make the system "opt in" - i.e. users will not have this system monitoring their web use unless they choose to have the service.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7289481.stm
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bungler
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 231
Loc: isle of mull
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There is a petition running if anyone wishes to read it and even sign it.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/
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Darkone
regular
Reg'd: Thu
Posts: 236
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These 2 links may be of interest to others one to help confuse (might be the best description to give) Phorm and the other a discussion on the subject on another forum from Virgin media's customers points of view..
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Still in the dark but the lights getting brighter
Edited by Darkone (Tue Mar 11 2008 06:01 PM)
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predator
regular
Reg'd: Sun
Posts: 530
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If BT and Virgin Media follow the lead set by Talk Talk then I suspect the number of people opting in to Phorm will be pretty low. That means Phorm will struggle to get advertisers prepared to pay them, and their business model starts to fall apart.
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FifeFlyer
regular
Reg'd: Thu
Posts: 3582
Loc: Fife
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A Lavasoft blog on the subject.
As a Virgin guinea pig I'm not a happy bunny
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http://www.thelost.org.uk/
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Madeline
regular
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 14604
Loc: Wales
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Maybe, or even probably, I'm a bit paranoid, but I'm starting to find all this slightly sinister especially after reading the Lavasoft blog.
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"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton, 1887.
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clairewoffenden
Editor
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 551
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Are any of you one of the 6,000+ that have signed the Number 10 petition?
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bungler
regular
Reg'd: Mon
Posts: 231
Loc: isle of mull
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Yes, I am, and that is why I posted the link above.
This situation is also why I have requested my MAC from Virgin.net......they have no right to hi-jack my intellectual property in this manner. They have lost a customer, and I hope that if they persist with this idea, lots more customers will vote with their feet and move to other, non-participating ISPs.
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Hello_There
Moderator
Reg'd: Thu
Posts: 5770
Loc: Here, in my room
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Sir Tim Berners-Lee's views
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 27426
Loc: belfast
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Quote:
user behaviour (which is logged and kept for 14 days) is being monitored for marketing purposes
what happens when these scumbags ( previous adware propagators) decide that they can make more money by selling this information on to other undesirables ? or they start throwing the ads at you via popups ?
I don't come on the net to read advertisements and i certainly won't be buying any products that do advertise by using this underhanded method.
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MY HELP IS FREE,BUT PLEASE CONSIDER GIVING A DONATION TO HELP IN MY FIGHT AGAINST SPYWARE.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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CaptainKremmen
new user
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 1
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The problem with this is not so much the advertising, that is an accepted part of the internet these days, it is with the interception of a users data. I have been active on digitalspy.co.uk, Badphorm.co.uk and the Labour MP Bob Piper's blog about this. I have even had a debate with a user calling themselves PhormUKTechteam who said that they were part of Phorms Technical Department (more on that one later).
Phorm have blatantly misinformed us, the BBC and many others on this from the start, as have BT. For instance, Phorm told me they have no equipment in China nor links with anyone in that country. This is untrue, Phorm have admitted to the media that they do have equipment in China. Phorm advised that they had no links with anyone connected with, or previously connected with the Russian Security services. This is untrue, Phorm have admitted that their programmers are Russian and many did have previous links with the Russian Secret services. Phorm first advised that no information is stored for any length of time, being deleted immediately once the add has been served. This is untrue, Phorm's own website and their patent advised that data is stored for up to 14 days. Phorm advised originally advised that if you opt out, your data is not collected. Untrue, it is still collected which they have now admitted to, your browser will simply send a cookie asking the processing server not to process it. Do you trust them not to use it?.
This could fundamentally change the relationship between us and our ISP for the worse. How can an ISP continue to argue to the security services, the BPI, the RIAA, the MPAA and anyone else interested in tracking us, that the ISP is just a data conduit?. They cannot, because they will already be tracking us for advertising. They will come under increasing pressure to track everyone for other reasons too. This could leave ISPs open to legal action for almost anything it's users do online from a stupid comment on a blog, to of course, movie downloads that arent legal.
And now to PhormUKTechteam or whatever they are calling themselves this week. Badphorm.co.uk have discovered that they do not work for Phorm and are not part of their techteam. They work for Phorm's PR company. Yet more lies from Phorm I am afraid.
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FifeFlyer
regular
Reg'd: Thu
Posts: 3582
Loc: Fife
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No i hadn't Claire , but i have now  .
Darkone , thanks for the Dephormation link. Until the ISP's get the message I'll use the add-on.
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http://www.thelost.org.uk/
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Trollop
regular
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 33
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For those of you who are BT customers and haven't yet seen the Beta.BT.com forum posts on this topic there are two and although both long they make very interesting reading - particularly now that BT seem to be refusing to answer any questions posted on the Q&A thread that THEY started 
BT Webwise technical trials to begin from mid-March 2008 (Q&A thread)
BT Webwise General discussion thread
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Regret the things you've done, not the things you haven't!
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 27426
Loc: belfast
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the silence from BT is deafening.
personally i think they have just run for cover, they agreed to use PHORM thinking we are all idiots, and wouldn't notice what was going on.
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MY HELP IS FREE,BUT PLEASE CONSIDER GIVING A DONATION TO HELP IN MY FIGHT AGAINST SPYWARE.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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Joe_London
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 10122
Loc: London
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Quote:
What do people think about BT, Virgin and Talk Talk (so far) signing up Phorm ( a company who's boss was responsible for some of the spyware we all hate).
Can you give us his name and the spyware you are referring to please?
I'm in contact with Virgin my ISP and they have confirmed their intention to introduce this. They have given this assurance though:
Quote:
you won't be forced to use the system, and you will be
given the choice to keep your internet experience exactly as it is now.
As we get closer to launch we'll explain how this will work.
Joe.
PS. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, its the first I've heard of it.
Edited by Joe_London (Mon Mar 31 2008 06:35 PM)
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Cheemag
new user
Reg'd: Thu
Posts: 1
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Quote:
Quote:
What do people think about BT, Virgin and Talk Talk (so far) signing up Phorm ( a company who's boss was responsible for some of the spyware we all hate).
Can you give us his name and the spyware you are referring to please?
I'm in contact with Virgin my ISP and they have confirmed their intention to introduce this. They have given this assurance though:
Quote:
you won't be forced to use the system, and you will be
given the choice to keep your internet experience exactly as it is now.
As we get closer to launch we'll explain how this will work.
Joe.
PS. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, its the first I've heard of it.
The company's boss is a dubiously named Mr Ertugrul, who has links to
121 Media, an adware business.
What I do not understand (perhaps I've missed something), is that they say
they do not know who you are, they do not take your IP address, yet they
target you with tailored adverts. If they don't know who you are, how the
hell can they target you with adverts?
As many IP addresses are not fixed but come from an ISP pool of IPs,
what the hell use would that be in targetting adverts anyway?
They say you can opt out, but who's to know if opting out will have any
more effect than ticking a box on a website to say you don't want adverts
'from carefully selected companies' has any effect. (For 'carefully selected
companies' read 'We're going to sell your EMail address to whoever's
prepared to pay for it, whether you tick the box or not".
There's something very fishy indeed about this whole business.
For what good it may do, go to the Downing Street website and sign the
petition there, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if this business
were to turn out to be a sneak initiative by the (spit!) government.
--
Cheemag.
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Joe_London
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 10122
Loc: London
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Good questions Cheemag.
Hope we can get some answers. Thanks for that information.
Joe.
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Doublell
regular
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 461
Loc: Essex
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The government is always going about how important it is for new British citizens to obey the laws of the land. Well it seems to me that the actions of BT in gathering information about its customers' surfing habits, without first asking their permission, is not very British. Perhaps the government could stop BT using the word British in its name.
Whilst they're at it they could get rid of the flying pigs that keep bothering the pink elephants.
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'the essential is invisible to the eyes'
Edited by Doublell (Thu Apr 03 2008 10:19 PM)
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predator
regular
Reg'd: Sun
Posts: 530
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Quote:
What I do not understand (perhaps I've missed something), is that they say
they do not know who you are, they do not take your IP address, yet they
target you with tailored adverts. If they don't know who you are, how the
hell can they target you with adverts?
As many IP addresses are not fixed but come from an ISP pool of IPs,
what the hell use would that be in targetting adverts anyway?
I believe they use cookies on your pc which will store information about the type of sites you've viewed.
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?3
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predator
regular
Reg'd: Sun
Posts: 530
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The latest news - the Information Commissioners Office has ruled that Phorm must operate an opt-in system instead of their planned opt-out system in order to comply with data protection laws
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7339263.stm
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Joe_London
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 10122
Loc: London
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PHORM CEO: WE CAN REVOLUTIONISE ADVERTISING
Controversial system to benefit less-popular sites
http://email.pcadvisor.co.uk/go.asp?/bPCA001/qGIKL6/x3EO2C
Plus links to other articles.
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bricat
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Wed
Posts: 27426
Loc: belfast
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I've just found WEBWISE.NET cookies on my computer in ccleaner.
I have now blocked them in the hosts file, but just wondering where they came from, have virgin sneaked this in without us knowing. ?
--------------------
MY HELP IS FREE,BUT PLEASE CONSIDER GIVING A DONATION TO HELP IN MY FIGHT AGAINST SPYWARE.
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
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Joe_London
HijackThis Helper
Reg'd: Tue
Posts: 10122
Loc: London
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Thanks Brian, I'll keep an eye on that.
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